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Was Renee Good obligated to comply with an ICE agent's orders? Legal experts consider whether ICE gave a "lawful order", or "unlawfully" acted as local police
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The platform needs to be that ICE is not well trained and her death could have been avoided had they been. This with the list of other bad practices they implement are reason for its abolishment.
But legal experts have already agreed, the fact her car went towards him and bumped means there's practically no way to remove the pretense of self defense for the shooting.
Can probably hit them with a bunch of less important issues, but it's being blown out of proportion. I fully suspect the admin wants to continue polarizing society as much as possible. This is part of their plan. It's also why they will allow torture in the detainment centers. They want to create permanent division and a point of no return between the left and right. I'm not falling for it.
Anyways, let's abolish these fuckers and get that clown out of office. Remember to take the high road in the meantime. Don't stoop to their level.
Except where otherwise required by inspections or other operations, Authorized Officers/Agents should avoid standing directly in front of or behind a subject vehicle. Officers/agents should not place themselves in the path of a moving vehicle or use their body to block a vehicle’s path.
Authorized Officers/Agents should avoid intentionally and unreasonably placing themselves in positions in which they have no alternative to using deadly force.
Deadly force shall not be used solely to prevent the escape of a fleeing subject.
Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles
Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury to the officer or others, AND NO OTHER OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE MEANS OF DEFENSE APPEAR TO EXIST, WHICH INCLUDES MOVING OUT OF THE PATH OF THE VEHICLE.
DHS LEOs are prohibited from discharging firearms at the operator of a moving vehicle, vessel, aircraft, or other conveyance unless the use of deadly force against the operator is justified under the standards articulated elsewhere in this policy. Before using deadly force under these circumstances, the LEO must take into consideration the hazards that may be posed to law enforcement and innocent bystanders by an out-of-control conveyance.
DHS LEOs should seek to employ tactics and techniques that effectively bring an incident under control while promoting the safety of LEOs and the public, and that minimize the risk of unintended injury or serious property damage. DHS LEOS SHOULD ALSO AVOID INTENTIONALLY AND UNREASONABLY PLACING THEMSELVES IN POSITIONS IN WHICH THEY HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE TO USING DEADLY FORCE.
And he was already to the left and out of path of the vehicle when he opened fire, as the videos show. This "first bullet through the windshield" claim used to claim otherwise is odd - like some don't really want to understand that the windshield is not the front of the vehicle.
Moreso because his own cell phone footage shows his reflection switching hands with it to free up his weapon side to grab for his gun moments before he stepped in front of it.
The very first thing they said to her was "GET OUT OF THE FUCKING CAR." There was never even an attempt to deescalate, they start at 11 and go up from there.
People don't respond calmly to get screamed at, especially when they know ICE likes to beat the hell out of people once they get a hand on them.
A separate video published showed that switch happen right next to his car. Sure looks like he changed his mind about getting in, switched hands to go for his gun, and walked directly in front of the car.
There were articles of this happening all the way back in 2014, as a way for officers to escalate the situation. DHS policy is to never step in front of a vehicle, and to never fire into a moving vehicle so that bystanders aren’t endangered in the event the driver is struck and the vehicle goes out of control, which is also what happened here. He did this exactly just a few months ago. ICE put him back out on the streets and then said he had past trauma around the previous incident when they were trying to justify this. Their answer for that trauma is to give him a gun and “absolute immunity” apparently.
From Title 1, U.S. DOJ Policy on Use of Force:
"Firearms may not be discharged solely to disable moving vehicles. Specifically, firearms may not be discharged at a moving vehicle unless: (1) a person in the vehicle is threatening the officer or another person with deadly force by means other than the vehicle; or (2) the vehicle is operated in a manner that threatens to cause death or serious physical injury ... and no other objectively reasonable means of defense appear to exist, which includes moving out of the path of the vehicle."
He also leaned over the vehicle. This fact isnt being focused on enough. There's a prosecutor on Substack that also contributed to Meidas Network I believe that did a whole breakdown on prosecuting this. He specifically mentioned Ross leaning, and that destroys the imminent danger narrative. The early draw, the lean, the attitude before, during, and after, these all debunk the fact he felt threatened. He positioned himself physically and mentally to shoot her. But go head and tell me Im speculating, but in court this would be a big aspect of my argument. He had the ability, and time to avoid any contact with the vehicle. Thats just the first shot, the second and third are easily proven unjustified.
No matter how anyone feels about shot #1, shots #2 and 3 were straight murder and he wasn't in any danger.
Honestly him switching the phone to his left hand right before he manufactures exigency is the most damning thing about the entire event. Dude was getting ready to shoot.
So my guess is that he drew his gun to intimidate her (which is illegal). Then just straight panicked (again state issued weapons shouldn’t have panicked individuals) and shot her. Then cover up ensued.
Dont forget that he did not call in medical assistance either.
G. Medical Care
As soon as practicable following a use of force and the end of any perceived public safety threat, DHS LEOs shall obtain appropriate medical assistance for any subject who has
visible or apparent injuries, complains of being injured, or requests medical attention. This may include rendering first aid if properly trained and equipped to do so, requesting
emergency medical services, and/or arranging transportation to an appropriate medical facility
So legally speaking, does "fear of getting bumped at 2 mph" automatically permit bullets in the face? I thought "self defense" set a higher bar for the threat at hand. Did the subway sandwich come with the threat of death or just mustard?
And is there an aspect similar to entrapment when officers place themselves in imminent threat? With gun already drawn before the vehicle moved an inch?
The Supreme Court (Barnes v. Felix, 2025) has ruled on this, unanimously. If a law enforcement officer creates the situation that results in him placing himself in danger, if he escalated the situation, he cannot then claim self defense as justification for use of deadly force.
That isn't the the holding of Barnes v. Felix. It resolved a circuit split regarding the "moment of threat" versus "totality of the circumstances" in analysis of police use of force cases.
It allowed Courts in certain circuits to consider the reasonableness of the officer's action throughout the incident, and how and if the officer's actions may have created a danger, not just whether there was danger to the officer at the "moment of threat", absent prior context.
It explicitly does not say that an officer cannot claim self-defense if he placed himself in danger. It simply permits a court to consider it as a factor.
Also self defense goes out the window after the first shot he put 2 more shots in her head and then calls her fucking bitch before fleeing the scene. At least that is what the trial lawyers and prosecutors I’ve listened to have stated.
He was a fire arms instructor too. Idfk how. He was in Afghanistan, then border patrol, then ICE. His entire adult life. That makes it so much worse imo. His PTSD from a car dragging him 6m ago didn't help either
Haven’t heard details of what happened when he was dragged by the car. Anybody know? First, if he had that happen, he shouldn’t have been on the streets until cleared by psychiatrist, second, did he do the same thing, stepping in front of a vehicle?
Not just because he’s been a member for a while, he’s the same person who got hurt stepping in front of someone else’s car and trying to grab their steering wheel through the window to stop them from driving off. He’s literally done this before against policy and the law, only this time instead of trying to reach inside her murdered her and called it a day.
ICE Agent Who Reportedly Shot Renee Good Was a Firearms Trainer, Per Testimony
Jan 8, 2026 10:19 PM
Jonathan Ross, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement officer identified by multiple news outlets as the federal agent who shot 37-year-old Renee Good in Minneapolis on Wednesday, is a veteran deportation officer in ICE’s Enforcement and Removal Operations division, according to sworn testimony from the federal district court in Minnesota obtained by WIRED. A member of a Special Response Team, ICE’s version of a SWAT team, he’s had duties as a firearms trainer and led teams drawn from multiple federal agencies including the FBI, Ross testified.
Also, immigration agents have been using this "step in front of a car to justify a shooting" trick for over a decade.
The review was completed in February 2013 by the Police Executive Research Forum, a nonprofit that develops best practices for law enforcement use-of-force policies. It examined sixty-seven use-of-force incidents by federal border agents near the US-Mexico border that resulted in nineteen deaths.
Here are some key findings of the review, revealed by the Times Thursday:
Border Patrol agents have intentionally and unnecessarily stepped in front of moving cars to justify using deadly force against vehicle occupants.
Self defense doesn’t extend to shooting someone IN THE SIDE OF THE HEAD as they are driving away from you even if they bumped, ever so slightly, your body with their car.
Sorry, but hard no for the second paragraph there.
Gun was drawn and camera rolling well before she fled.
DHS policy explicitly forbids deadly force even when in mortal danger from a moving vehicle if any other means of evasion are available. Using deadly force to stop a fleeing vehicle is prohibited altogether because by removing the driver you’re turning a car into a two-ton missile.
Officer attempted to move into the path of the vehicle; wheels were pointed away, which for a 10-year veteran is either incredibly dumb or malicious justification. Contact was incidental at best; a substantial impact with a vehicle can knock you out of your shoes; he held onto both his phone and service weapon without issue.
First shot fired through the windshield at a ~30 degree angle, with the rest being fired through the open driver’s window, confirming he was not ever at risk of serious injury.
The problem with the wrongful death lawsuit is that it’s virtually impossible to win any sort of civil suit against an agent of the federal government. The Supreme Court and legislative complacency over the last fifty years has ensured that this is the case.
Legally, I think a wrongful death lawsuit has a much bigger chance of succeeding than a criminal case.
However, this does not mean that protests are pointless! Protests can get governments to change their minds or policies, or occasionally get them out of power.
Army basic training is 10 weeks or around 70 days.
At that point the soldier is qualified to go to JOB training known as AIT. They aren't even qualified to do a job yet and ICE has less training than that
I get what you're saying. But if this is the case, then people are going to have to get busy trying to figure out a way to make sure that we actually can have a fair election. If we can't control paramilitary crazy people on the streets of our cities, it seems somewhat short-sighted to put all your hopes on an election that may never happen or won't count.
The irony considering the story that broke yesterday about ICE letting all of those untrained/undertrained recruits go to their home offices is particularly nefarious since it was an AI tool that caused the issue.
Realistically, DHS as a whole needs to be abolished. Nothing it does is anything other agencies haven't been doing for decades/centuries and many of the agencies under DHS absolutely shouldn't be.
All DHS has done is consolidate power under a couple of unelected bureaucrats that answer only to the president. Bureaucrats who have been openly shunning Congress and its oversight authority.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. I think there’s a pretty robust argument that prosecution can make against these agents. If they’re able to demonstrate that the immediate custodial order for her to “get out of the fucking car”, and then the subsequent attempt to physically detain her was 1. Unnecessarily escalatory, given that they had no probable cause of her committing a crime other than a traffic infraction which would give them no right to issue a custodial order/attempt an arrest, and therefore was unlawful, and 2. Show that these unlawful actions effectively created the “dangerous” situation that the agent then used as justification for using deadly force, the prosecution can make a very strong case that the this was at least manslaughter and the officers should be charged.
Let me know if you would like me to share more or go into more detail.
He placed himself in front of the vehicle to justify lethal force, the legal term is called officer-created jeopardy and it was such a problem with DHS agents they implemented internal guidelines that state agents should not place themselves in front of a vehicle or shoot a vehicle for fleeing. Officer-created jeopardy does not justify lethal force or self defense.
But legal experts have already agreed, the fact her car went towards him and bumped means there's practically no way to remove the pretense of self defense for the shooting.
I wonder how true that is under the 2025 SC ruling Barns vs. Felix that requires the totality of circumstances to be considered and not just the moment the officer felt endangered.
If, under the totality of circumstances test, the conclusion is that ICE had no authority to stop and engage her, in how far will that preclude them from even claiming self-defense?
It is pretty well established that you can't claim self-defense if your actions are the reason for the self-defense to be necessary. E.g. a burglar can't claim self-defense if he shoots the owner of the house during his burglary.
I think this will get interesting and is not clear at all.
I agree with you, but take note of your first comment and consider the fact that the murderer Jonathan Ross, murderer of Renee Good, had been trained approximately 10 years prior and presumably was actively working for all 10 of those years.
This isn’t a fight picking stance, just wanted to add onto your comment to make it even more damning that there needs to be action against their “training”, or lack thereof
ICE is as well trained as they ever will be, and future training won’t cleanse the agency of its violent nature, which is why it should’ve been disbanded years ago.
No legal experts have not agreed on that because it's already legal precedent that they can't put themselves in harm's way in this example and then declare self-defense.
You’re wrong. Per multiple court precedents as well as DOJ policy, him stepping in the way of the car was officer induced jeopardy. No defense for him. He’s a murderer.
Didn't she also get conflicting orders? With the first agent out of the truck pointing and telling her to move on and then the other one running up and grabbing at her door and in her window?
Conflicting orders very, very often lead to weapons being fired unfortunately, and most of the time is at no fault of the victim...but in America, we rig the system in favor of state sponsored violence.
Edit: given the multiple responses telling me I'm wrong when you can look up the articles and eyewitness reports really makes me feel like we're at a breaking point.
https://youtu.be/NVd8zmjPGrg?si=zVTiNxqOjeEjUd2G
Something something it’s a feature, not a bug. All of these ghouls ought be ashamed of themselves… unfortunately they are not capable of experiencing anything but anger because their entire lives are fueled by hate, because they hate themselves most of all and it’s easier to take that out on innocent people than it is to take a look in the mirror and genuinely reflect on their problems.
like when one TSA agent yells at you for taking your laptop out and the other agent next to them yells at you for not taking it out, but with way higher stakes.
The thing is, I'm not interested in the whole "was it a lawful order" debate because even if it was a lawful order, it isn't "lawful" to execute someone over it. Immigration control does not have the combined authority of judge, jury, and executioner.
There are so many armchair quarterbacks judging on what she did, but it was a split-second decision. The officers are supposed to be trained to handle any situations like this and avoid causing injuries or death.
I know if my mom was in the car and a person dressed in fatigues and a mask reaches into her car to try to open the door from the inside, she would be startled and release her foot off the brake and not see the other officer in front of the car until it was too late.
That’s why these disruptive current events are always the fault of ambiguous leadership, the written, philosophized at scale, word of law versus one feeble old man and his entourage tweeting thoughts as national imperatives.
Thats one of the funny thing about criminal law. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse - civilians are expected to be full criminal law experts in all 50 states as well as USC Title 18.
Police or any government official are not required to have ANY knowledge of law at all.
One eyewitness said ICE agents gave Good conflicting instructions, with some telling her to leave while others told her to get out of the car. The video backs this up: You can hear a lot of yelling and barking orders, and the officers aren’t approaching her car with uniform calm, control, and clarity. Also, officers are never supposed to position themselves in front of a vehicle or approach it from the front for precisely this reason. DHS officers are generally prohibited from discharging a firearm at a moving vehicle, unless someone is using their car as a deadly weapon and “no other objectively reasonable means of defense is available.” DHS also has use-of-force rules, which are relatively straightforward and include a baseline “respect for human life” and “the communities we serve,” emphasizing de-escalation tactics as a core component.
In just a 24-hour period after Election Day 2024, [after Donald Trump won], the Institute for Strategic Dialogue tracked a 4,600% increase in mentions of the terms, "Your body, my choice" and "Get back in the kitchen" on the social media platform X. One post by far-right activist Nick Fuentes has been viewed nearly 100 million times...
Dude that officer that approached her car looked straight up like he was going to pull her out and throw her to the ground. That would scare the shit out of me as well.
One thing I feel people haven't brought up from the video. The fucker literally circled her car a couple times. He was trying everything but descalation.
I'm baffled that more people don't understand this. I had a terrifying traffic stop in Kansas once where two officers shouted conflicting orders at me, and one of the officers contradicted himself by saying two conflicting orders back to back.
"Just comply!" How does one comply when a bunch of trigger-happy officers are shouting whatever order comes into their brain?
This is from the "if you did nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" crowd.
Who, after losing their collective minds over wearing masks to help their neighbors, are suddenly super cool wearing masks or supporting people wearing masks so that they can protect themselves.
Almost like they're lying, self-centered clowns who haven't had a coherent thought in their head their entire life.
Haha fair enough. I try to add more words that give some wiggle room to the people I'm commenting on, but this might not have been the best time for it.
He actually screamed GET OUT OF THE FUCKING CAR while trying to open her door which is way more terrifying and threatening than “Get out of the car” I also probably would have floored it. Someone did the same to me once but they were trying to carjack me.
It's just like what they did to guy in umm, albequerque or vegas a few years back. An elaborate game of simon says this but not this do IT NOW so he just gives up and gets shot like a fucking insurgent.
That is such a hard video to watch. One of the things that’s not surprising in all these videos, but so fucking disappointing is how aggressive and disrespectful and just fucking intense these guys are when they’re supposedly trying to resolve a crisis. They escalate shit like crazy.
Typical. I don’t know how many right-wing guys I’ve had practically fantasize about using their guns to defend their family/home/whatever as they fall over themselves to tell a near stranger about their guns or what they would do if XYZ went down. It’s fucking weird the psycho shit I’ve heard because I’m a white dude in his forties so they assume I agree with their weirdo shit.
It's amazing how much the typical white dude will over share to another white dude like it's the most normal thing. Not just about guns. It's all their racist, homophobic, transphobic etc etc opinions. It's like their mind defaults to - they are white dude, you are white dude, you must have all the same opinions.
Having only one person voice directives in a stressful situation is SO BASIC to police and crisis intervention training. This current batch of ICE thugs wouldn't understand. They just want to cosplay machismo and abuse their position because they can.
Now that we know some of them are Jan 6ers/Proud Boys they are basically a paramilitary domestic terrorist organization working directly for the treasonous president.
There is an excellent video of a guy being pulled over and order out of the car and all of a sudden multiple cops are all yelling different instructions to him until one cop yelled for everyone to shut up. He then proceeded to tell the driver only listen to me and do what I say, no other officer will be giving you commands. After that every other officer kept their mouth shut and only that officer spoke. They ended up letting the driver go because dispatch entered his plate wrong and the car wasn’t stolen and the guys paperwork all matched what he was driving.
That's similar to my stop, but without the part where one officer takes charge. I've posted about it on Reddit before, but it was the most unbelievable thing I've ever had happen. To the point that people tell me I'm exaggerating or lying. It was in Jan 2020, right before shit kicked off with COVID. I was traveling on business, driving a rental car I got at the airport. Apparently, someone had stolen a car and swapped the license plates with my rental car (before I took possession of the car). They pulled me over on the interstate, then police cars surrounded the vehicle. I saw the lights and assumed I must be speeding or something, so I pulled off on the next ramp. They had several vehicles up ahead of me who proceeded to surround the car once I stopped. They held me at gunpoint and ordered me out of the car and handcuffed me. The moments before I got out of the car were terrifying because they were yelling conflicting orders. One officer had a rifle, he walked over to the passenger side of the vehicle, about 10-15 feet away from the car, in the grass alongside the road. Kept his gun on me the entire time. Behind the car, another officer pointed his gun at me and stayed behind his open car door. The other officers made a half circle behind him. One police car came the wrong way down the ramp and parked nose to nose with my car to block me, then that cop got out and walked around back to be out of the other officers' line of fire. They ordered me to turn off the car and throw the keys out the window, but they also kept telling me to keep my hands where they could see them. The car was a push-start ignition, so the key fob was in my pocket. So I'm in the drivers seat with my seatbelt on, they're screaming at me to keep my hands up and not make any sudden movements, but also telling me to roll down the window, turn off the vehicle, and throw out the keys. I knew if I reached down to get in my pocket for the keys, it would not end well. I eventually put both hands out the driver's side window and kept yelling "No keys!" over and over until they ordered me out of the car.
They were all pissed and acting like I was not complying, but it was the most alert I had ever been in my life. I could not have tried harder to listen. They had guns pointed at me. Once I was handcuffed, they started frisking me... I told the officer the key fob was in my pocket and that was why I couldn't throw the keys out. He just stared at me with no acknowledgment. Still in handcuffs, I repeated myself, "It's a push-button start. The key fob was in my pocket. That's why I couldn't toss out the keys."
They searched the vehicle, took my rental agreement, pulled my stuff out of the car. Eventually they acknowledged it was a mistake, but they never apologized or even told me I was free to go. They took off the handcuffs and I was standing there waiting for them to say I was free to go. They never said it... just left me standing there until eventually they started getting back in their cars. I was a little worried they were going to try to charge me for not complying or something, even though I hadn't stolen a car. But eventually I just walked back to my car and drove away slowly, once the other officer moved his vehicle.
This has become the story I tell at parties or family functions, but it was terrifying at the time. I'm a white male with no criminal history... I shudder to think what might have happened if it was an immigrant or person of color.
There are lots of videos floating around of various stops where conflicting orders were given simultaneously or rapid fire so you’re not the only one by far.
I swear I'm so sick of story after story, not just in the present with ICE, of officers constantly making every situation worse instead of trying in the most minimal way possible to de-escalate.
And even if it WAS a capital crime it wouldn’t justify officers murdering her. Lethal force is only allowed to be used if it is reasonable to assume without it someone’s life would be in danger AND officers don’t decide innocence or guilt - judges do.
Exactly. In a lawful country, the punishment for failure to comply is not death.
American police and other enforcement agencies however are deliberately and routinely conflating failure to comply with dangerous aggression that justifies lethal 'self defense'. Moves like putting their bodies in front of stopped cars, only to shoot even if the car is clearly driving around them, are an example of that.
These are the instincts of violent thugs, not of legitimate law enforcement.
Not irrelevant. Traffic violations on residential streets are not in federal code. And merely being annoying or a mild inconvenience is not obstruction, ie if her car had a flat under the exact same circumstances then the position of the car wouldn’t constitute obstruction.
If they had no authority over her or her vehicle they should’ve had to call local PD to seize her and her car
Or taken her information to an AG and had an arrest warrant issued
And depending on the locality resisting an unlawful detention isn’t a crime, so she might not even be guilty of fleeing
Minnesota defines a peace officer as “an employee of a political subdivision [i.e. a local municipality] or state law enforcement agency,” and only grants their federal counterparts arrest authorities for the purposes of state and local violations when a number of conditions are met. The most important of these prerequisites requires that the federal officer be on duty, acting at the request of a local or state officer, and operating pursuant to the supervision of that local or state officer. At this point, neither ICE management nor any executive branch officials have argued that these conditions were met; indeed, the tenor and tone of statements by the Minneapolis mayor and Minnesota governor would certainly suggest otherwise. The proper remedy, then, for Good’s obstruction of traffic would have simply been for the ICE officers to request that local police join in the response and facilitate the movement of her vehicle.
Did she even violate traffic laws? It looked to me like she was doing a 3 point turn and was about to go left. An SUV budged past and she had to hit the brakes and then decided to wave on the ICE pickup.
It’s actually really weird that they decided to hassle her, she was already leaving.
It has been circulating online that the street was a one way street, so if that’s the case then yes its technically a traffic violation or a parking violation but still local laws aren’t enforced by federal agents
That’s something I wish there was clarity on, but we will probably never know as the only source of information is likely ice, so completely unreliable.
Was she pulling out of her house and was stopped by their blockade of the street, was actually she there for hours protesting without a sign or protest gear of any kind, was she following ice around - but from in front of them somehow lol, etc.
I’m really curious about how she got into that situation to begin with, however it has zero bearing on the execution perpetrated by the officer.
You can watch multiple angles of this video and one angle that shows the ice officer reaching into the driver side window she panicked what was her response fight or flight well they fucked up and scared her and then they shot her because they made the mistake.
Ice is not qualified for traffic enforcement local police officers must clear the roads.
Just recently we saw a woman going to her doctor's office get ripped out of her car by Ice agents they should have not been engaged in that situation it should have been local police officers directing traffic.
Rather than having experts debate, why not charge and prosecute the piece of shit and let the processes we have determine it? That's what judges and juries and appeals are for.
You'd have to locate and arrest the suspect, Jonathan Ross, first. The Trump administration and ICE are currently shielding, aiding, and abetting him as a fugitive from the law by hiding him in a bunker, Osama bin Laden-style.
The state will open an investigation (and probably already have, given how hostile they are to ICE in general). That will involve requesting a lot of documents and interviews from the Federal government, which will block them every step of the way. Still, they will try and document it.
Then, they may press charges against the officer. About an hour later, it will be removed to Federal court because it was a federal official acting under color of law. This might be the end of it.
Alternately, the state, if it's feeling feisty, will decide to prosecute it federally, which is something they can actually do here, but it'll be weird as heck. It is possible they will get a conviction.
At this point, or possibly earlier, Trump will try to pardon him because now it's federal (Update: he probably can't do this).
If the state really wants to ensure he serves time, the right strategy is probably to allow the Feds to slow everything down for a few years, and hope the conviction happens post-Trump, God willing under a Democrat.
Not a lawyer but I’ve read that if the Trump agent federalizes the state charges they are still state charges and Trump can’t pardon. The state officials still run it, it is just in federal court with a federal judge.
Maybe, but if there ever comes a second where trump thinks defending this guy is no longer worth the cost, he's done. Trump doesn't give a shit about him. He only cares about himself. I was suprised to see even the slightest walk back of his stance happen already. Yesterday he called it a "tragedy on both sides" which to me suggests the public outrage is actually having an impact on trumps stance. Whether or not it leads to anything, who knows. But it is interesting to see his stance change.
The guy lives in Minnesota, and the NYT posted an article describing his background and where he currently lives. They didn’t give out the address but the information makes it clear MN could file an arrest warrant. I think they should pursue prosecution to at least test this aberrant notion of federal immunity in court.
In the end, since Bondi's corrupt DOJ and Patel's corrupt FBI have gathered and sequestered all of the evidence, it's pretty hard for the local LEOs and prosecutors to gather the required evidence to present a case.
Exactly, if he just let her go, got her license plates and then prosecuted her in court to obstruction of justice or whatever, it would've been a different story. I'm sure it still would've been rocky but he wouldn't have killed someone over it.
This is the thing that everyone is missing. It doesn't matter that she was "blocking the road" (she was moving the car), or if she was being snarky or rude or annoying. Nothing she did warranted being killed. I keep seeing people dismissing her death because she put herself in that position. This was homicide.
Well, when he incompetently walked in front of a moving car he created a situation where his life was in danger (because he was an idiot). He might get qualified immunity, but he will get sued like crazy in civil court and DHS will be culpable for the idiot as well.
And federal agent training specifically bars walking in front of vehicles or firing at one moving toward you - because as can be seen from this situation, shooting someone in the face multiple times doesn't stop their vehicle from moving, obviously.
He will be protected by the federal government and receive no consequences, but if or when a normal human being is president he is very clearly fucked.
Second part is correct that the punishment is not execution, but the first part I would not agree with. It does matter if ICE is within its authority or not to be initiating and prolonging these interactions that lead to homicide or whether they need to just move on.
Yelling get the fuck out is not clear did they mean get the fuck out of here or get the fuck out of the car ? Regardless whether it was a lawful order or not would have been for a court to decide but she was unlawfully shot dead so it’ll be a little difficult for her to testify in court. The press needs to stop splitting hairs on this murder giving the Gestapo justification for it’s crime
Multiple agents gave contradictory orders, it was literally impossible for her to have complied. Law enforcement does this a lot in order to justify brutalizing, arresting, and often murdering people just like they did with Renee.
Does not really matter. If she acted unlawfully they should have taken note of her plates and summoned her to court, not executed her like Judge Dredd.
There were conflicting orders as well so it is even harder to say. If someone is saying to get out of the car and someone else to get that car out of here. Those are very different things and contradict one another.
The other thing is that they do bring up a good point. ICE agents have very limited jurisdiction. If I am remembering right they only really have the right to potentially get someone if they are in a public space and are suspected of being in the US illegally. The only other authority they have is to potentially detain if you are obstructing their job. Which they take now as anything people do around them. Which is a major reach too. I am sure I am messing that up but that is along the lines classically.
Now they are kicking doors in and the like. They do not have the proper warrants to do that or suspicion. They are greatly exceeding their stated role but someone has to stop them or care first. They are Trump's private police force at this point.
Not sure of the laws in Minnesota, but I doubt the Federal government would see it that way. That said, typically there are great consequences for entering a house without a warrant.
However, there are a fair number of exceptions too. At least for regular police. Which they often try to use in the case of a mistake. Some of them tragic. I do not know if those apply to ICE though as they have a much narrower mandate anyway. Generally, they have administrative warrants even if they suspect someone with no immigration status inside. Which is not sufficient to kick down the door.
Honestly, ICE should be there to tell people to go to court, not as a police force as such. As they really only have authority over such a narrow area that the fact they are detaining citizens and assuming people are not by default should be a major problem. As every day citizens are not required to carry proof of citizenship. And with DHS not accepting real ideas most people are not carrying their birth certificate or passport with them just going around town.
I would suspect alot of this is illegal, but it is doomed to be played out in courts for a while and SCOTUS is generally in favor of heavy-handed tactics at the moment and seems to have little regard for law or life either.
Oh and you forgot, then after she was very much no longer a threat even by their tortured definitions, they prevented her from getting medical care to ensure she died a slow and painful death.
People were walking and driving around, so clearly no obstruction. And immigration officers had no legal reason to be doing traffic stops even if she was. I would drive away from masked brownshirts too.
America, as it should be, as it was imagined, was an exercise in participatory democracy. The right and need to protest and the inviolable sovereignty of the citizen against the state, and the right for the populace to demand change are exactly what the Founding Fathers envisioned when they created the Union.
When Jefferson said that "When tyranny becomes law, resistance becomes duty", he was thinking exactly of people like Renee Good.
This should not be a divisive message. She got shot in the fucking face for being suspected of exercising that duty.
The real issue is not about whether she was required to comply. The only issue is whether the use of lethal force [4 bullets, including one to the head] was justified in absence of threat of serious bodily injury or of death to the officers and others.
I respectfully submit that the real issue is whether ICE had authority to stop her and issue commands in the first place. This wasn’t a border crossing. They had no reason to suspect she was an illegal immigrant. They had no warrant for her or her passenger. They were attempting to drive down a public street in a legally registered vehicle. There was zero probable cause for them to bark a command.
Now I’m not an attorney. There may very well be legal issues I don’t understand here but from my perspective ICE is 100% in the wrong. Wrong for creating this situation to begin with and most definitely wrong in how they reacted.
Her not complying with an order or not in my view is collateral and a calculated distraction. It is about killing of a citizen under non-exigent circumstance when neither officers nor a third party was in any danger of bodily harm and certainly none was created by the victim. She was heading home after dropping off her child at school.
We’re in agreement on this - they were absolutely not justified here and his “fucking bitch” at the end of that video, followed by A.) doing nothing to seek medical aid or even determine if aid was needed then B.) preventing others from administering aid makes this a straight up murder.
I guess my contention is that the entire situation was manufactured by ICE and they had no business in even instigating the confrontation to begin with.
Honestly not trying to be argumentative just making a point (maybe badly).
ICE authority regarding American citizens is very very limited. You DO NOT have to answer questions about your citizenship or status. Carrying documentation is encouraged however. ICE can detain you temporarily if citizenship isn't immediately proven. ICE also cannot enter your home without a judicial warrant or your voluntary consent. It has to be a judicial warrant, not an administrative warrant. Never open your door unless you see the judicial warrant.
Reminder, ICE are NOT police officers. They have no business drawing weapons on American citizens at any time. Ever. Fuck the Gestapo.
I agree though it would be useful to get a solid legal opinion on ICE authority rather than trying to figure it out through conflicting media accounts.
One issue also is “was she required to comply” since immigration agents aren’t enforcing traffic laws and there clearly wasn’t an immigration action taking place.
They've been behaving as a police/military force (confusing? Yeah, because they're doing what the police did trump's first term but far far far worse) and not as immigration agents. Nothing they've been doing should be considered 'lawful.'
Yup, ik. What they're doing is to try and incite an opposition in order to declare martial law. This is like the 4th time they've done so during his presidency. Last 2 month stretches of time and is absolutely tiring to see all this unlawful crap happen with no one speaking up because of all the pedo's in power.
Even if the car was a threat, how the hell is shooting the driver - making them lose control of the car, and potentially slam on the accelerator even more due to decerebrate posturing - neutralizing the threat?
Here’s my $0.02: this lawful order analysis matters for civil proceedings, but I don’t think it’s necessarily relevant to the criminal case, which is much more important, imo. In the criminal case, the only question at issue is whether the killer had a reasonable belief that he was at imminent risk of serious bodily injury, such to justify the use of deadly force, at the moment he fired the bullet that killed Ms. Good.
If it was the first bullet, I can imagine a good lawyer putting on a good defense, but it could go either way. If it was any other bullet, there is just going to be a standoff where the Feds refuse to hand him over on state charges, because he has almost no chance at trial on at least a 2nd Degree murder count, maybe 1st. Also, perhaps the federal standoff and refusal to allow him to be prosecuted will occur regardless.
On an entirely different level, that would also be relevant to civil proceedings, the federal agent she drove away from (not the one who shot her) approaches the car and immediately says “get the fuck out of the car” and starts grabbing for the inside of the door. There was no previous conversation. Not even a request to stop blocking the roadway. When I see that, my thought is that, not only has this person not been trained to deescalate, but he likely has been told that he would be rewarded for escalation. Discovery on that inquiry could be explosive.
ANY WELL-TRAINED PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICIAL should be embarrassed that these people get paid more than they do, basically to make a big scene and escalate tension wherever they go. The opposite of what real public safety officials do, at tremendous value to the community.
Either this 'agent' has the worst survival instincts imaginable, or he was never in danger of being seriously injured. Who in their right mind LEANS INTO a vehicle that they think is about to run them over?
Whether she was or was not legally obligated to comply, at no point is the recommended action for lack of compliance murder.
We seem to be overlooking that little tidbit as we try to figure out whether it was justified. There is no plausible scenario where his actions are justifiable. Even if everything happened exactly as he claimed and conservatives are pretending (she was belligerent, cursed him out, and attempted to run him over with her car), literally none of those justify her murder.
It's weird that people keep trying to find justification for an act that cannot and should not be justified.
It's like trying to justify rape or something. Why would you even bother?
It's so obvious that local law enforcement should deal with traffic incidents like this not ICE officers that is not their Duty they literally scared this woman who then drove forward and then got shot, it is on them they killed this woman it should be local officers directing her away from traffic.
First, whatever "orders" have to be clear and not conflicting. We are human. It isn't going to work to give people conflicting orders and expect them to comply
ZERO immigration was occurring. There IS no "border" in Minneapolis or St. Paul Min. There is nothing to "enforce." She did no wrong. She was murdered.
My mail carrier is a friendly person. They would ask me mail related tasks (like could you please not park that close to the mailbox) or thank me in the winter for giving them a safe path to our front door. I would probably go along with what they ask of me because I they aren’t screaming at me and trying to break into my car.
She absolutely wasn’t subject to ANY “order,” this is fucking absurd. And even if she was, you can’t shoot a fucking car. I swear to god, this may be the straw that breaks this fucking country
Why don't we talk about the legality of the PEOPLE hired for ICE employment. Why don't we force SCOTUS to bring their motherfucking asses up front, without masks, to be accountable to the people of the United States of America????
I understand the idea of following orders for your safety, but ICE has shown that following their orders does not at all guarantee safety. They seem to relish in the violence, even after someone complies. Just look at that 17 year old US citizen they dumped in a Walmart parking lot. Or those folks who are dying in their custody with no video evidence of their actions.
Dumped is only partially accurate. They body slammed him onto the concrete of a parking lot 8 miles from where they took him. He was sobbing and bloody when spotted by strangers
I don't even think they ever gave her an opportunity to comply, they straight up attacked her and made her fearful enough for her own safety to drive away. Then she was murdered.
She was first told to leave and was trying to do so. After the first thug reached through her window to try and grab her, she probably panicked. She may not have heard any “orders” given while in that panicked state.
This is the problem with hiring a poorly trained goon squad. Federal law enforcement was, prior to this sad era, very well disciplined and knew how to do their jobs professionally. Because we had high standards and excellent training.
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